Yasko's understanding of the sulfite problem vs general view

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googlem
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:06 pm

Yasko's understanding of the sulfite problem vs general view

Postby googlem » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 pm

Dr. Amy Yasko's stance on the sulfate (yes, sulfate, not sulfite) propblem is that if you have too much sulfates (in your urine? hair? not sure), that means you have high sulfites, that are all converting to sulfates very efficiently, causing high sulfates and other problems. See below:

"To summarize, in my opinion the issue with high sulfates is three fold, one it indicates high levels of sulfites and excess transulfuration activity, two it suggests that molybdenum and B12 may be depleted from the system and three that the cortisol reaction and imbalances in norep/epi may be a factor due to high total levels of sulfur containing groups."
from http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.ph ... ria.27790/

Is this some sort of alternative understanding of the sulfite problem? Because the sulfite issue, as I understand it, is that if you lack the sulfite oxidase enzyme (which needs molybdenum to form or operate, not sure which), then you're stuck with too much sulfite flowing around the blood.

So my question is, is the problem that Yasko identifies in the post above, a completely different problem from sulfite oxidase deficiency? It would seem so, right!?

makingitpossible
Posts: 1259
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Yasko's understanding of the sulfite problem vs general

Postby makingitpossible » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:49 am

I am not an expert on Yasko. I never had enough money to do it long term. Though I did try to see proof of her theory on CBS and increased transulfuraction pathway.
This is what I found awhile back.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=32052&hilit=cbs

kulkulkan
Posts: 2075
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:37 pm

Re: Yasko's understanding of the sulfite problem vs general

Postby kulkulkan » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:26 pm

googlem wrote:Dr. Amy Yasko's stance on the sulfate (yes, sulfate, not sulfite) propblem is that if you have too much sulfates (in your urine? hair? not sure), that means you have high sulfites, that are all converting to sulfates very efficiently, causing high sulfates and other problems. See below:

"To summarize, in my opinion the issue with high sulfates is three fold, one it indicates high levels of sulfites and excess transulfuration activity, two it suggests that molybdenum and B12 may be depleted from the system and three that the cortisol reaction and imbalances in norep/epi may be a factor due to high total levels of sulfur containing groups."
from http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.ph ... ria.27790/

Is this some sort of alternative understanding of the sulfite problem? Because the sulfite issue, as I understand it, is that if you lack the sulfite oxidase enzyme (which needs molybdenum to form or operate, not sure which), then you're stuck with too much sulfite flowing around the blood.

So my question is, is the problem that Yasko identifies in the post above, a completely different problem from sulfite oxidase deficiency? It would seem so, right!?


Yes, it would appear so although the core issue is the same (excess sulphites). Besides sulphites in diet, one can also get sulphites due to excess "transulfuration activity" according to Yasko. That in itself is an issue which she tries to address with her protocol (focused on methylation and transulfuration pathway). If you have SOD deficiency, that makes the sulphite issue (whether from diet or excess transulfuration) much worse.

kulkulkan
Posts: 2075
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:37 pm

Re: Yasko's understanding of the sulfite problem vs general

Postby kulkulkan » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:11 pm

Here is a a bit old but more comprehensive overview of sulphation issue in ASD context (by Dr. Rosemary Waring).

http://www.autismfile.com/science-resea ... -the-links

I have always been interested in the sulphation pathway as addition of a sulphate group can make dramatic changes to the properties of both drugs and tissue components. Our group first started working in the field of autism about 15 years ago, when we were asked to measure the metabolism of paracetamol in an autistic child. At the time, I had only heard the orthodox medical view that autism was ‘all in the mind’ and had no biochemical basis. To our great surprise, we found that children with autism, unlike the age-matched controls, were much less able to form the sulphate conjugate of paracetamol, although the other metabolic pathways were normal. We went on to look at the levels of sulphate in the blood plasma, because sulphation capacity depends on both the amount of sulphate available and also the activity of the enzyme that carries out the reaction. We found that autistic children generally had low sulphate levels, typically about 10-15% of the control values. Sulphate is produced in vivo by oxidation of methionine or cysteine, both sulphur – containing amino acids which are provided from dietary proteins, and this pathway probably provides ~ 80% of the sulphate required in man.

The first stage in this process involves the enzyme cysteine dioxygenase (CDO); cysteine sulphinic acid is formed and undergoes fission to provide sulphite (SO 3 2- ) ions which are then further oxidised to sulphate (SO 4 2- ) ions by the enzyme sulphite oxidase (SOX). Obviously, if CDO or SOX have reduced activity, the provision of sulphate will also be decreased. The human CDO gene is localised to chromosome 5 (5q22-23) and it is interesting that analysis of 110 multiplex families with autism, where one sibling had autism and the other a diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome or pervasive developmental disorder, suggested linkage on chromosomes 5 and 19 while a study on ADHD (attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder) found a linkage to chromosome 5q33. The CDO protein is found in heart, thyroid and kidney, as well as brain and the liver, localisation in the CNS being particularly found in the cerebellum and the Purkinje neurons; these are known to be abnormal in patients with autistic spectrum disorders. CDO activity is variable in human populations and there are sub-sets with lower activity (~ 30% of the population) or null activity (~ 3% of the population).


According to AC, CDO can also be inhibited by Hg and his take is also that up to 30-50% of the population will have high cysteine due to reduced CDO activity and cannot tolerate thiol rich supplements or food. Unfortunately, not much follow up on the sulphation line of research - more recent updates in link below.

http://questioning-answers.blogspot.ca/ ... ch-at.html

googlem
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:06 pm

Re: Yasko's understanding of the sulfite problem vs general

Postby googlem » Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:38 am

Many thanks, kulkulkan and makingitpossible. I will go through the links you've shared.

Regards.

googlem
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:06 pm

Re: Yasko's understanding of the sulfite problem vs general

Postby googlem » Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:37 am

I came back to this thread after a while, and had some thoughts and experiences I wanted to share.

First, the issue Warring points out, where either Cysteine Dioxygenase is reduced, causing reduced Sulfite and Sulfate, or Sulfite Oxidase is reduced, causing excess sulfite and deficient Sulfate (the situation she witnessed).

I would imagine that in the first case, consumption of high sulfite foods could potentially be beneficial.

Only in the second scenario does it seem that consumption of high sulfite foods would be problematic.

wdyt?

We seemed to have the second problem, as consumption of sulfite rich foods and sulfite food preservatives led to very abnormal behavior. China officinalis, a homeopathic remedy, combined with aggressive sulfite avoidance, proved very helpful.

crzxn
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:24 pm

Re: Yasko's understanding of the sulfite problem vs general

Postby crzxn » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:27 pm

I see SUOX SNPs in EVERY autistic person I have the genes for; homozygous in the more severe cases. To be clear I am not saying that it causes autism, I am saying it causes a lot of the symptoms of autism.

The low sulphate levels can be cause by a number of upstream pathway SNPs but the severity of the symptoms of low sulphate, i feel, are always caused by SUOX polymorphisms. I have hetero SUOX SNP and my life changed when I started taking molybdenum (I have aspergers). A friend of mine who is homozygous has ended her chronic fatigue taking Molybdenum. She also has two children with autism who are taking 50mg of molybdenum and have shown significant improvement in awareness and other issues. I will invite her to this group so she can tell her own story.

Yasko has some logical flaws in all of her thinking. In this case she assumes that if one has high sulphate levels they will have high sulfite levels. But that will actually always depend on your SUOX SNPs.

I always (urine) tested low sulphate and high sulfites which caused my fatigue and brain fog. I think this causes other issues as well because of a build up of too much hydrogen sulfide which is a neuro modulator. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19703504

Fixing sulfate production in the body is crucial for many reasons but one is that we live in an heavy metal polluted world. Sulfate helps transport a host of thing in and out of cells:
http://physrev.physiology.org/content/81/4/1499

Mercury effects those of us with low sulfate levels more because mercury inhibits sulfate transport. From the link above; "Mercury strongly and irreversibly inhibited NaSi-1 transport (K i = 7 μM) by reducing both V max and K mfor sulfate, whereas mercury strongly inhibited sat-1 transport (K i = 2.5 μM) by reducing itsV max by eightfold but not itsK m for sulfate (158,159). "

Lead does the same thing.

Increasing SUOX activity is simple, take molybdenum. Some thiamin MIGHT be called for since there is evidence that sulfites reduce thiamine in the body. But this is probably not that likely since our food is fortified with thiamine.
https://books.google.com/books?id=cKZfBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=SUOX+molybdenum&source=bl&ots=EW88J8sgEw&sig=w6LJA0ge9aPqUO92ZP2MEu4IreQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCWoVChMIuOKCmdvnxgIVlZ2ICh2lkAyQ#v=onepage&q=SUOX%20molybdenum&f=false

I also have a CBS SNP that I think saves me from my body producing too much sulfite, however dietary sulfites are not controlled by the SUOX gene and will cause side effects. I knew I had sulfite sensitivity before my genetics. My genes only confirmed what I knew.

Here is a more complete pathway to sulfate:
http://www.mdpi.com/molecules/molecules-19-21350/article_deploy/html/images/molecules-19-21350-g006-1024.png

crzxn
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:24 pm

Re: Yasko's understanding of the sulfite problem vs general

Postby crzxn » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:32 pm

kulkulkan wrote:
googlem wrote:Dr. Amy Yasko's stance on the sulfate (yes, sulfate, not sulfite) propblem is that if you have too much sulfates (in your urine? hair? not sure), that means you have high sulfites, that are all converting to sulfates very efficiently, causing high sulfates and other problems. See below:

"To summarize, in my opinion the issue with high sulfates is three fold, one it indicates high levels of sulfites and excess transulfuration activity, two it suggests that molybdenum and B12 may be depleted from the system and three that the cortisol reaction and imbalances in norep/epi may be a factor due to high total levels of sulfur containing groups."
from http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.ph ... ria.27790/

Is this some sort of alternative understanding of the sulfite problem? Because the sulfite issue, as I understand it, is that if you lack the sulfite oxidase enzyme (which needs molybdenum to form or operate, not sure which), then you're stuck with too much sulfite flowing around the blood.

So my question is, is the problem that Yasko identifies in the post above, a completely different problem from sulfite oxidase deficiency? It would seem so, right!?


Yes, it would appear so although the core issue is the same (excess sulphites). Besides sulphites in diet, one can also get sulphites due to excess "transulfuration activity" according to Yasko. That in itself is an issue which she tries to address with her protocol (focused on methylation and transulfuration pathway). If you have SOD deficiency, that makes the sulphite issue (whether from diet or excess transulfuration) much worse.


But the extra sulfites will only be a concern if the body cannot get rid of them. For those people with fast SUOX SNPs a fast transulfuration pathway is not an issue, unless the eat copious amounts of sulfites. But for those of us with reduced activity SUOX SNPs extra sulfites are a huge issue.

na7222002
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:43 am

Re: Yasko's understanding of the sulfite problem vs general

Postby na7222002 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:18 pm

I see SUOX SNPs in EVERY autistic person I have the genes for; homozygous in the more severe cases.


Are you talking about rs10876864 that you mentioned in another post?

A friend of mine who is homozygous has ended her chronic fatigue taking Molybdenum. She also has two children with autism who are taking 50mg of molybdenum and have shown significant improvement in awareness and other issues. I will invite her to this group so she can tell her own story.


Please do. I'm very interested. 50mg of molybdenum sounds a lot. Did she do any other supplements?

crzxn
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:24 pm

Re: Yasko's understanding of the sulfite problem vs general

Postby crzxn » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:06 pm

na7222002 wrote:
I see SUOX SNPs in EVERY autistic person I have the genes for; homozygous in the more severe cases.


Are you talking about rs10876864 that you mentioned in another post?

A friend of mine who is homozygous has ended her chronic fatigue taking Molybdenum. She also has two children with autism who are taking 50mg of molybdenum and have shown significant improvement in awareness and other issues. I will invite her to this group so she can tell her own story.


Please do. I'm very interested. 50mg of molybdenum sounds a lot. Did she do any other supplements?


Yes, rs10876864.

And sorry that was 50mcg of Molybdenum. Here are both her kids supplements that she has seen results with.

P5p 34 mg
Optizinc 30 mg
Neuroimmune cream
Prescript Assist Probiotics
Molybdenum 50 mcg
Chia seeds or flax seeds as I can hide in food like pancakes or rice.


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